[impdev] [kokua-team] Picking good keystrokes for Qarls align tool.

David Seikel onefang at gmail.com
Mon May 13 00:15:42 PDT 2013

On Sun, 12 May 2013 14:47:14 -0700 McCabe Maxsted
<mccabe at kokuaviewer.org> wrote:

> Tool selections should always have shortcuts. You don't want to break
> the builder's flow by forcing them to repeatedly interact with the UI
> when they don't have to. Dropping it entirely would be a bad idea.

Out of the five tools in that radio group, only two have shortcuts.
Position and Select faces in particular I would think would have more
need for adding shortcuts, they would tend to be used more often than
align / pack in the general case.  You pretty much always have to move
and texture.

If we go with the premise that tool selections should have shortcuts,
then I think Align and Pack would be low priority, Position and Select
face should get shortcuts first.

> My choice of CTRL+A was that it's simple (you can do it with only
> your left hand on a QWERTY keyboard),

Actually works on Dvorak keyboards to, "A" is one of two letters that
are in the same place an both.  As a Dvorak user, I don't object to it
for that reason.  B-)

> it doesn't actually interfere with other parts of the UI (that is,
> you can't select inworld prims and the UI simultaneously), and all
> the prim manipulation shortcuts are non-standard anyway.

That's the problem though, it DOES interfere with other parts of the
UI.  Hence the bug report and this discussion.  I've tested it, the bug
report is correct.

> A bit of a copout, I know, but the list of open shortcuts was tiny.
> I'm sure you could steal a different key combo from one of the
> windows (which don't need a shortcut nearly as much anyway). CTRL+G
> would probably be a better option, looking back.

Ctrl-G is Gestures, Ctrl-Shift-G is Groups.  Yes, this is the main
problem with assigning a key, we need two keys for this tool,
preferably a key and it's shifted version.  As you said, not a lot left
to go around.

On the other hand, I think we could safely drop some of the shortcuts
from the Advanced menu.  Don't think anything in Advanced -> UI really
needs a shortcut for instance.  That frees up Ctrl-Alt-Shift-M, and I
don't see Ctrl-Alt-M used for anything (correct me if I'm wrong).  Frees
up a few more as well.  Ctrl-Alt-F for face selection, Ctrl-Shift-P for
position should work.  Pity Ctrl-Alt-P is Phantom avatar, would have
been a bit more consistent to use that.

> On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Nicky Perian <nickyperian at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > iirc qarl put up a youtube video detailing usage and there was no
> > mention of shortcut keys.
> > IMO lets drop the keys. I don't think it is used enough to justify
> > tying up keys.
> > nicky
> >
> >   ------------------------------
> >  *From:* David Seikel <onefang at gmail.com>
> > *To:* impdev at lists.imprudenceviewer.org;
> > kokua-team at lists.kokuaviewer.org *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 10:30
> > AM *Subject:* [kokua-team] Picking good keystrokes for Qarls align
> > tool.
> >
> > I'm opening this up to both teams, since Kokua will have this
> > problem to if this align tool is / has been added.
> >
> > http://redmine.kokuaviewer.org/issues/948 is the original problem.
> > A conflict with the use of Ctrl-A.  Lots of software uses that to
> > mean "Select all", and Imprudence is no exception.  So that should
> > stay. McCabe added a patch from Ascent viewer that assigned Ctrl-A
> > to Qarls prim alignment tool.  This is what caused the bug report,
> > one keystroke, two functions attached to it, and both triggering at
> > the same time.
> >
> > McCabe suggested to move it to some other key, but there's a problem
> > with that.  Which is why I'm looking for discussion on this one.
> >
> > The main problem is that the align tool is actually two tools,
> > align, or pack.  Align mode means that prims are squashed together
> > so that they all start at the same place.  Pack mode is similar,
> > except overlapping prims are moved so they are no longer
> > overlapping.  I think, may be the other way around, I've never
> > actually used it.
> >
> > So we really need two keystrokes.  Then there is two modes of
> > having the tool active, temporary as you hold down the keys, and
> > permanent if you select the radio button at the top of the edit
> > floater.  Some of those radio buttons are selected by modifier
> > keys, which are in short supply.  So it gets complicated.
> >
> > Position, rotate, stretch, select face, align.  Each can be selected
> > from the radio button group with a mouse click.  No problems there.
> >
> > Once align is selected, holding down shift changes to pack mode,
> > otherwise it's align mode.
> >
> > Holding down Ctrl puts things into rotate mode.  Holding down
> > Ctrl-Shift stretch mode, Alt into focus mode, and any combination
> > that involves Alt also is focus mode.  Focus mode is not part of
> > that radio group.  Shift by itself is not used, unless a text box
> > is focused, then it's used for usual shifted text.  In each of
> > these cases, it does not matter which mode it was in, and the
> > previous mode is returned to once you let go.
> >
> > This last one is what the patch from Ascent does, temporarily shift
> > to align / pack mode while Ctrl-A/Ctrl-Shift-A is held down.  It
> > should be noted that the Select faces radio button in this group
> > has no similar hold down method, don't think it makes sense there
> > anyway.  Position, the top and default, also has no hold down.
> >
> > Once in align mode by clicking the radio button, Ctrl and
> > Ctrl-Shift no longer temporarily shift to rotate and stretch.
> >
> > Yes, horrible UI bolted together over the years from various
> > sources, but we are stuck with most of it.  Old parts are in
> > peoples muscle memory.  My fingers keep trying to use these
> > keystrokes in Blender.  lol
> >
> > I had thought of the idea of using Ctrl-Shift-A for align, and
> > Ctrl-Shift-P for pack.  Ctrl-Shift-P is already used for Advanced
> > menu -> UI -> Print selected object info, an obscure debugging
> > option that could probably afford to loose it's hot key.  Sticking
> > with shift used to switch between align and pack gives us Ctrl-P
> > and Ctrl-Shift-P, but now we conflict with Ctrl-P for preferences.
> >
> > Currently it does not mention anywhere that there's a hot key to
> > temporarily switch to align/pack mode anywhere on the UI, though it
> > mentions that once you have ALREADY switched.  Not really enough
> > space for these things, since there's two of them.
> >
> > So we are caught between a rock and a hard place if we want two hot
> > keys to temporarily switch to align or pack mode.  No available
> > friendly mnemonic in both shifted and unshifted modes, or it gets
> > clumsy to hint at if using different keys.
> >
> > What are your thoughts?
> >
> > McCabe thinks we should have a key.  Though it's two keys needed
> > really.
> >
> > I want to be lazy and just drop the keys, the radio button works.
> > B-)
> >
> > --
> > A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
> > coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Kokua-Team at lists.kokuaviewer.org
> > http://lists.kokuaviewer.org/listinfo.cgi/kokua-team-kokuaviewer.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Kokua-Team mailing list
> > Kokua-Team at lists.kokuaviewer.org
> > http://lists.kokuaviewer.org/listinfo.cgi/kokua-team-kokuaviewer.org
> >
> >

A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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